May 24, 2004
Monday
An Interview with
Staff Sgt. Jimmy Massey
by Amy
Goodman of Democracy
Now!
Listen to Amy Goodman's full interview
with Staff Sgt. Jimmy Massey, a 12-year Marine Corp veteran,
on the Democracy Now! web site at:
(You will find the interview 13 minutes
into the 1 hour broadcast.)
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/05/24/148212
Or if you'd rather listen to only the
interview with Jimmy Massey,
you can choose one of the audio files below (28 minutes, 26
sec):
Introductory text from the Democracy Now! web site:
Ex-Marine Staff Sergeant Jimmy Massey talks about his time
in Iraq where he admitted the U.S. treatment of Iraqi civilians
is fueling the Iraqi resistance. In a recent interview he
said "I felt like we were committing genocide in Iraq."
The US Army is denying reports that the highest-ranking American
officer in Iraq, Lieutenant-General Ricardo Sanchez, was present
during some of the interrogations and prisoner abuse at Abu
Ghraib prison outside of Baghdad. This follows a report in
The Washington Post over the weekend about an April 2nd military
hearing on the prisoner torture allegations. According to
The Post, a lawyer representing one of the accused soldiers
said that the commander of the U.S. military police company
at the centre of the abuse scandal, Donald Reese, told him
that General Sanchez was aware of what was taking place.
Tonight President Bush will deliver a prime time address on
Iraq aimed in part at controlling the damage from the situation
at Abu Ghraib. Meanwhile, Conscientious Objector Sgt. Camillo
Mejia was sentenced to a year in prison for desertion from
the Army. His application for CO status mentioned prisoner
abuse in Iraq long before the current scandal.
Now another US
soldier who participated in the Iraq invasion and occupation
has begun speaking out. Twelve year Marine veteran Jimmy Massey
joins us on the line from North Carolina.
SOME QUOTES FROM THE INTERVIEW:
- "I would say my platoon alone killed 30-plus innocent
civilians."
- "We ultimately started looking at everybody in Iraq
as a potential suicide bomber or terrorist from women to children
to old men. We didn't know who the enemy was."
- "The one that was unscathed, he looked up at me and
he goes, you know, why did you kill my brother? We didn't
do anything to you. We're not terrorists. So, I have three
dying men with bullet holes from our weapons, and this gentleman
asking me why I killed his brother. That's a tough pill to
swallow, and that continuously happened the entire time that
we were in Iraq."
- "We're basically
committing genocide over here, mass extermination of thousands
of Iraqis, and with the depleted uranium that we're leaving
around on the battlefield, you know, we're setting up genocide
for future generations within Iraq."
- "These Iraqis
had a clear shot of this tank before we even got there, but
they didn't. I just quickly- put two and two together and
said, oh, my God - we just opened up on a group of peaceful
demonstrators."
- "I'll be
honest with you, there isn't a waking moment of the day that
I don't think about it and think about what we have done over
there."
- "The reason
that I'm doing this is to heal myself and to possibly heal
other marines that are not in the position for them to come
out and say something because of fear from retaliation from
the marine corps."
- "We were
supposed to go in there and set up a democracy. All we did
was cause chaos and have a genocidal mindset. You know, genocide
mindset. So, they're mad and they have every right to be mad.
I know if somebody killed my brother, you know, indiscriminately
and laughed about it and said, well, sorry, wrong place, wrong
time, I would be mad, too."
THE INTERVIEW:
AMY GOODMAN: Welcome to Democracy Now!.
STAFF SERGEANT
JIMMY MASSEY: Good morning. How you are doing?
AMY GOODMAN:
Very good. Can you talk about when you were in Iraq?
STAFF SERGEANT
JIMMY MASSEY: Uh, yeah. I was part of the initial
invading force. I was part of first marine division categorized
into RCP-7. The battalion that I was with was third battalion
seventh marines, weapons company cap 1. I was basically in
the main invasion all the way up into Baghdad, and then once
Baghdad fell, my battalion headed south towards the city of
Karbala.
AMY GOODMAN:
And can you talk about your experience there?
STAFF SERGEANT
JIMMY MASSEY: Uh, generally, what led up to my disgust
with the war was the civilian casualties that we were inflicting.
Um, we were given intelligence reports -- basically, the civilian
casualties really started taking place after we left the town
of Anu Mannia on the drive north towards Baghdad. We were
getting intelligence reports from higher command saying that
the Fedayeen and Republican Guards were trading in their uniforms
for civilian clothes, and they were mounting terrorist attacks
against U.S. soldiers and marines using guerrilla-style tactics,
suicide bombings. They were using civilians as human shields.
They were loading down stolen ambulances and police cars with
explosives. So, as we progressed on towards Baghdad, our fears
and anxieties were heightened, and also due to the lack of
sleep, some of us had less than 48 hours of sleep getting
into Baghdad.
So, whenever we were placed into these situations where civilian
vehicles were coming up to our checkpoints, and not heeding
our warning shot, we were lighting them up. And what I mean
by lighting them up, we were discharging our weapons, 50 cals
and M-16's into the civilian vehicles. Now when we would do
this, we were expecting secondary explosions, ammunition to
be cooking off or actually have the occupants in the vehicle
fire back at us. However, none of this ever happened. And
when we would go to search the vehicles, we would find no
weapons, um, and nothing to link these individuals with --
these individuals with terrorists acts. And this happened
continuously through the fall of Baghdad. I would say my platoon
alone killed 30-plus innocent civilians.
AMY GOODMAN:
How would you realize what you had done? Can you give a specific
example of a car?
STAFF SERGEANT
JIMMY MASSEY: Sure. Sure. Ah, a car would roll up
to our checkpoint. And prior while we were still in Kuwait,
we had actually made up Arabic road signs to place out in
front of our checkpoint area warning the Iraqis to slow down.
That didn't help. We would verbally tell them stop and we
would fire a warning shot. When we would light the cars up,
you know, we would go through and search the dead occupants
as well as the vehicles, and we would find nothing that directly
linked them to any type of terrorists. They were just average
civilians that were trying to flee out of Iraq -- or excuse
me -- out of Baghdad, out of the city limits because of the
invading American force. They were scared. But with the intelligence
reports that we were given, it was very hard for us to distinguish
the good guys from the bad guys. We ultimately started looking
at everybody in Iraq as a potential suicide bomber or terrorist
from women to children to old men. We didn't know who the
enemy was.
AMY GOODMAN:
We're talking to Jimmy Massey former marine staff sergeant,
honorably discharged in December after serving 12 years, most
recently in Iraq. He was in charge of a platoon that consisted
of machine gunners and missile men describing, quote, lighting
up cars, opening fire on Iraqi cars. When you would go up
to the cars and see who was dead inside, what would you do
with the bodies?
STAFF SERGEANT
JIMMY MASSEY: We would take the bodies and we would
search them to try to find any type of identification or anything
like that. Generally, we found large quantities of cash, and
that's what led us to believe that these people were just
fleeing out of Baghdad. They were trying to secure what valuables
that they had. Some of them had their valuables in the car,
but you know, there was basically nothing that we could do
with the bodies other than toss them in the ditch and off
the road. So, that's what we would do, and then hopefully
wait for the Iraqi medics, civilian medics to come in and
take care of the bodies.
AMY GOODMAN:
How many children would you estimate you killed?
STAFF SERGEANT
JIMMY MASSEY: With unknown gunfire, the potential
is unlimited, and what I mean by unknown gunfire, whenever
you fire a machine gun especially a 50 caliber and any type
of lightweight machine gun, you don't know where the bullets
are going to go. So bullets could indiscriminately hit a child.
The architecture in some of these villages that we went into
were very shady construction. Our weapons could easily punch
through. The reason I say that or use that as an example.
I had a young child die in my arms. The father came up to
us at the checkpoint with a child, and began to say, the bombs
-- the bombs killed his child. I called the corpsman. The
corpsman came over to assist the child and said the child
probably had internal damage from the concussion, from the
bombs.
So, as his child died in my arms you know, I began to think,
you know, wow, here's an innocent child that was just sleeping
or doing things that children do, and the -- the response
that I got from my command was, well, better them than us,
and, you know, it's -- he's just a casualty of war. Sorry.
However, that father that was standing there as his child
was dying in my arms, and, you know, the doc was resuscitating,
doing CPR, this father was looking at me like, why did you
do this? You know, and -- you know, why does my son have to
die? Almost just like a hatred look towards me. He knew I
was obviously in command.
And another incident it was on the outskirts of Baghdad, near
the Baghdad stadium. We had pulled into an area, and shortly
after we had pulled in, it was on a major highway, like a
superhighway going in towards Baghdad. We had just lit up
a vehicle, a red KIA, the Korean-made passenger vehicle, and
we had just lit it up. They failed to stop at our checkpoint.
Three of the men were fatally wounded that were in the vehicle
and one -- the driver, had survived without any damage. As
we were pulling the bodies out of the vehicle, of course,
we're searching and we find nothing, and these were young
-- these were young men. They were in their mid 20's.
The one that was unscathed, he looked up at me and he goes,
you know, why did you kill my brother? We didn't do anything
to you. We're not terrorists. So, I have three dying men with
bullet holes from our weapons, and this gentleman asking me
why I killed his brother. That's a tough pill to swallow,
and that continuously happened the entire time that we were
in Iraq.
After we left the city of Anu Mannia, it just became utter
chaos. It sickened me so that I had actually brought it up
to my lieutenant, and I told him, I said, you know, sir, we're
not going to have to worry about the Iraq -- you know, we're
basically committing genocide over here, mass extermination
of thousands of Iraqis, and with the depleted uranium that
we're leaving around on the battlefield, you know, we're setting
up genocide for future generations within Iraq. He didn't
like that.
He immediately went to my commanding officer, Captain Schmitt
and proceeded to tell him about how I felt about Iraq. Word
spread pretty quickly and I knew that my Marine Corps career
was over. I knew that the statement that I had just made was
going to bring about the blackball pretty quickly. So, I was
scurried out of Iraq quickly, and ordered to report back stateside
to receive psychological therapy for post-traumatic stress
disorder and major depression. When I got back stateside,
that's when things really became ugly. I felt like the staff
sergeant that just received the prison sentence for a year.
I had to hire a lawyer because they were trying to pin me
with conscientious objector, and basically, they were doing
everything in their power to threaten me and to intimidate
me so that I would go U.A. Unfortunately, with the staff sergeant,
he fell into their trap, and he went U.A.
AMY GOODMAN:
What does U.A. mean?
STAFF SERGEANT
JIMMY MASSEY: Unauthorized absence. That means that
he left without authorization. That's basically -- you know,
that's what they charged him with. Then they later on pinned
on the conscientious objector. However, the Marine Corps told
me they were going to bring legal repercussions against me
and I decided to hire a lawyer. The lawyer that I hired was
actually -- he was involved with the My Lai trials. So I got
really lucky, a man by the name of Gary Myers in Washington
D.C. Their main concern was whether or not I was a conscientious
objector. I told them that I believed in war and some wars
in our history have been helpful for humanity and society
as a whole. However, I do not believe in killing innocent
civilians. So, I told them if they wanted to label me as a
conscientious objector for disagreeing with, you know, killing
innocent civilians, then I'll see them in court.
AMY GOODMAN:
We're talking to Jimmy Massey, former staff sergeant Marine,
honorably discharged in December after serving 12 years. We're
speaking to him from his home in Waynesville, North Carolina,
in the Smoky Mountains. We'll come back to him in a minute.
AMY GOODMAN:
This is Democracy Now! The War and Peace Report. Democracynow.org.
I'm Amy Goodman, as we continue with Marine Staff Sergeant
Jimmy Massey, honorably discharged in December, talking about
his experiences in Iraq. You talk about opening fire on a
group of protesters.
STAFF SERGEANT
JIMMY MASSEY: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN:
Can you describe it?
STAFF SERGEANT
JIMMY MASSEY: Sure, we had just rolled up -- it was
probably about 20 miles north of the Saddam International
Airport. We had rolled up into this military compound area,
and to try to give you -- it's a little bit important that
you understand the architecture. This military compound was
heavily fortified with about 13-foot-tall concrete fences
going all the way around the compound. This particular road
that we went into, these walls were on the left and right,
and the road itself was about 1,000 meters long. So, it made
a very difficult -- and it was a prime area for an ambush.
When we pulled up, there was already an Abrams tank, a US
Marine Abrams tank that was parked into one of the entrances
at the military compound. At the end of the street about 200
meters away from the tank, there was a group of demonstrators.
They were holding a peaceful demonstration. They were holding
up signs that looked like a Muslim cleric as well as Saddam
Hussein.
The intelligence that we had received was these demonstrators
-- there was about four of them and there was ten in the background.
They were standing next to a highway overpass. The intelligence
that we had gotten, these people were probably members of
the Iraqi military that had slipped back into the community,
and they were going to be waging all of these terrorist attacks
against us. We rolled up, and about two minutes later, we
had heard a stray gunfire. My men were already on the edge,
you know, with anxiety, and the lack of sleep, and with the
constant reports that we were given.
When the gunshot was fired, my marines opened up on the demonstrators.
I turned around just in time because I was walking the lines
inspecting my marines to make sure that they had food and
water and they were in the right position in case of an ambush.
I turned around to the front of the convoy, and I saw the
-- I saw my marines opening up. I swung my rifle around. I
didn't know what was going on, and I started discharging my
weapon as well into the demonstrators. After that, the lieutenant
decided to go on a reconnaissance up onto the overpass area.
We -- as we were driving towards the demonstrators, I didn't
see any weapons, which just horrified me at the thought that
we just opened up on a group of peaceful demonstrators. However,
we heard gunshots coming from that direction towards us. So,
as we rolled up onto the highway overpass, I looked down and
below the highway it looked like the Iraqis had set up some
sort of makeshift military compound, but it had been abandoned.
I saw some R.P.G.'s lining up against the wall underneath
this highway, and it was about -- they were about 200 meters
away from the Iraqi demonstrators.
This really disturbed me, because the demonstrators, if they
wanted to fire on us, they had the ability. They had the ability
before we even got there, to destroy this tank, because the
way that we were jammed into this area, it was almost impossible
for us to turn around quickly. Nearly -- or double almost
impossible for this tank to fire or use its main battle gun.
It basically left this tank defenseless. These Iraqis had
a clear shot of this tank before we even got there, but they
didn't. I just quickly- put two and two together and said,
oh, my God - we just opened up on a group of peaceful demonstrators.
AMY GOODMAN:
We're talking to former marine staff sergeant Jimmy Massey.
What about the use of cluster bombs?
STAFF SERGEANT
JIMMY MASSEY: I had a staff sergeant at the very
beginning of the war. He was our supply staff sergeant. He
lost his leg because of cluster bombs. Cluster bombs were
everywhere, and I believe that he was the first marine to
be awarded the Purple Heart in "Operation Iraq."
because it happened in Safwan, the town of Safwan, which is
the very first city as your heading into Iraq from Kuwait.
They were everywhere, and just the long-term casualties of
these cluster bombs, you know, with children and -- you know,
older people working in the fields is going to go on for years.
AMY GOODMAN:
Where were they from?
STAFF SERGEANT
JIMMY MASSEY: From Marine Artillery and from air.
AMY GOODMAN:
In the case of the protests, when you realized that you had
opened fire on defenseless civilians, what was your reaction
of your troops and how many people felt the way you did?
STAFF SERGEANT
JIMMY MASSEY: The reaction of the troops was, they
were joyous. You know it's not their job to play politics.
That's the job of the staff sergeant and the lieutenant, to
make determinations on whether or not we were in the right
or we were in the wrong. I didn't tell my troops because my
job was to keep them motivated so they go home alive, and
in one piece, and left with some sort of sanity after the
war. However, I did have several of my younger troops come
up to me in private and say, you know, staff sergeant, can
I talk you to? And then they would go on to tell me, you know,
that some of the incidents were affecting them.
So, I told them, I said, listen double dog, we're here to
do a job and provide democracy for the Iraqis, and you questioning
and you playing politician is not helping them. So, I want
you to get back out there on the gun line and do your job
as a marine, and let the politicians do their job. But deep
down, it was seriously affecting me, because it was so evident.
You know, marines are trained from day one that you go in
-- when you go in to the boot camp on what the Geneva Convention
is, what the rules of the Geneva Convention, what the rules
are, you know, the rules of engagement. However, Iraq violated
every rule of engagement that I've ever been taught - violated
every rule of the Geneva Convention that I have been taught.
If you have young marines coming up you to and asking you,
staff sergeant, what's going on? You know, we have got a problem.
AMY GOODMAN:
What are you doing right now? How are you living with yourself?
How are you dealing with what happened in Iraq with what you
and what you and your soldiers did in Iraq?
STAFF SERGEANT
JIMMY MASSEY: I'll be honest with you, there isn't
a waking moment of the day that I don't think about it and
think about what we have done over there. A lot of people
ask me, you know why you are speaking out? Why are you --
you know, are you just trying to do this for money, fame,
fortune. What are you doing? I have been called a traitor,
a disloyal s.o.b. You name it. The reason that I'm doing this
is to heal myself and to possibly heal other marines that
are not in the position for them to come out and say something
because of fear from retaliation from the marine corps. I'm
doing this not only to heal myself but to help other marines
that feel the same way that I do.
AMY GOODMAN: Are
others talking to you now here?
STAFF SERGEANT
JIMMY MASSEY: No. Let me explain you to -- I was
also a recruiter for three years in the Marine Corps. Whenever
you sign up for the military, army, navy, air force, marines,
coast guard, you have a four-year commitment. At the end of
that four-year commitment, you still have another four-year
commitment in what's called an I.R.R., Individual Ready Reserve.
That means in the time of national emergency or crisis, the
president of the United States can call these members back
to active duty. So, these marines that have been discharged,
you know, after the fall of Iraq, they're living back in their
civilian community but they're still fearful to come out and
say anything because the Marine Corps can call them back to
active duty. And then they're worried about what happened
to the staff sergeant.
The staff sergeant is being used as a patsy. He's being used
as: see, this is what will happen to you to if you speak out.
However, I spent 12 years in. There's nothing that they can
do to me as far as calling me back to active duty. So, I feel
it's my responsibility to let the civilian public know. You
know, the bullets that we put into those civilians were paid
for by the U.S. Tax dollars. I believe that the U.S. Taxpayers
have a right to know what's going on over there.
When we pulled into that military compound, they had makeshift
morgues. They had tractor-trailer beds full of bodies. It
was so bad -- this is because of the bombing that we did.
Some of them had Iraqi flags on them, representing that they
were a soldier, but 80% of them didn't. We would find tractor-trailers
literally full of stacked bodies. It was so bad that the plasma
from the body and the skin was decomposing and literally oozing
out of the crevices of the tractor-trailer bed. We asked --
we asked some of the Iraqis that -- the locals that were basically
homeless and they were living in the compound, we asked them,
like, what is this? How come, you know, the bodies are in
there, and he told us it was from the bombing, and when they
lost the power, they didn't have any other place to put them.
So, they put them in there to bury them later on.
AMY GOODMAN:
Jimmy Massey, I want to thank you very much for being with
us, former marine Staff Sergeant, honorably discharged in
December after serving 12 years, speaking to us from his home
in Waynesville, North Carolina, in the smoky mountains. Any
last thoughts?
STAFF SERGEANT
JIMMY MASSEY: Yeah. I'd just like to say to the Marines,
you did a great job. You did what your country asked you to
do. Unfortunately, the rules of engagement and the Geneva
Convention weren't used. But it's up to you to look within
your heart and do the right thing. You know who you are. Don't
be scared. Come out. The American public, they need to know.
You're not the only one. There are other people out there
that can help you to heal. There are other people out there
that can help you to get on with your life. Don't feel ashamed.
Don't feel embarrassed. You did a great job, however, you
know, the Command -- they didn't give you the right tools
for you to carry on with your mission. Just do the right thing,
marines.
AMY GOODMAN:
Who do you hold most responsible for this?
STAFF SERGEANT
JIMMY MASSEY: The president of the United States.
He's the one that authorized it. He's the one that said there
were weapons of mass destruction. He's the one that gave the
case to us for going to war. We went to war backing him, however,
the intelligence reports that we were getting hindered our
ability to make Iraq a free democracy. You know, it's hard
to tell a middle aged or middle -- you know, young man in
his 20's -- say 20 to 28 years old, that just watched his
brother die by the hands of Americans. It's hard to tell him,
you know what, hey, we're sorry. All right. He's just a casualty
of war. Now, this young man has taken revenge or is acting
in revenge against the United States in Fallujah, in Karbala.
He's picking up that R.P.G. because he's mad. He's mad at
the Americans. We were supposed to go in there and set up
a democracy. All we did was cause chaos and have a genocidal
mindset. You know, genocide mindset. So, they're mad and they
have every right to be mad. I know if somebody killed my brother,
you know, indiscriminately and laughed about it and said,
well, sorry, wrong place, wrong time, I would be mad, too.
AMY GOODMAN:
Jimmy Massey, thank you for being with us, former Marine staff
sergeant, speaking to us from North Carolina.
STAFF SERGEANT
JIMMY MASSEY: Thank you.
AMY GOODMAN:
This is Democracy Now!...
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